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Mario User

Joined: 15 May 2007 Posts: 542 Location: Mohawk Valley, NY
Real Name: Mario Doreste
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Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:24 am Post subject: |
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| Pathfinder Ted wrote: | | So if I use anything other than a .690 ball in ANY Bess,I'm incorrect? |
In a word? Yes.
Contracts stipulated a basic standard of ~.750" for bore size, but allow for a little variation. These are, after all, handmade tubes.
In a quick glance at LLP, SLP, commercial "Brown Bess" and Sea Service muskets from the 1730s to 1780s in a couple of books, the bore size runs from .750" to .800" with one at .700".
French guns are supposed to be .690" bores, but the same look shows most at about .710" with a couple out to .750".
It was about ease of loading and rapidity of fire. a .690" ball was standard. Even after the barrel getting fouled, you could still ram down the cartridge.
And FYI- in 1776, orders stipulated that each cartridge should contain about 137gr of powder. Granulation was likely = to our modern 1F or 1 1/2F. Figure after priming, 120gr was going down the barrel.
Mario
_________________ http://frontierloyalist.blogspot.com/
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Wahkahchim User
Joined: 29 Jul 2010 Posts: 285
Real Name: Peter Andresen
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Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:54 am Post subject: |
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Ok, I'm officially envious of your .77 bore. :) My thought is that they used what worked. They DID seem to use paper cartridges primarily, so whatever makes that fit would work best. Also I've seen a gizmo in a museum which could only be described as a ball sizer: a piece of sheet brass with a variety of holes to fit ball through. So we can guess that at least ONE person in the universe tried to fit the ball to the bore. And I am also thinking that if I ever draw down on a deer with my bess, I'm going to use a patched ball if that's the most accurate, because I want to hit squarely and kill cleanly. So all in all, Pathfinder Ted, I think you've got it dialed in. I still have envy. :)
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Wahkahchim User
Joined: 29 Jul 2010 Posts: 285
Real Name: Peter Andresen
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Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:00 am Post subject: |
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120 grains would hurt. After about 20 shots it would hurt more....
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Mario User

Joined: 15 May 2007 Posts: 542 Location: Mohawk Valley, NY
Real Name: Mario Doreste
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Wahkahchim User
Joined: 29 Jul 2010 Posts: 285
Real Name: Peter Andresen
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Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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Mario, I'm also wondering if I'm not bringing a 21st Century mind to a 18th century technology. Even if they had .77 bores, they issued .69 ball in paper cartridges because they were less interested in accuracy and more interested in volume and in reliability after multiple volleys had fouled the bore. Yet I'm interested in accuracy, so I tend to tinker with the variables a bit more than the original users. Is that a correct conclusion? If so I plan on going ahead and enjoying my tinkering but also realizing that it's not what a British line officer would do. Thoughts?
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Fitzhugh Williams User

Joined: 15 May 2007 Posts: 360 Location: Greenville, SC
Real Name: Fitzhugh Williams
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Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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There is an account of Robert Rogers shooting at "marks" while deep in enemy territory (not the best place for practice), so apparently at least he was interested in accuracy. Exactly how he loaded for this exercise we will never know.
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bob miller User
Joined: 28 Jan 2009 Posts: 103 Location: Sharbot Lake,Ontario
Real Name: Bob Miller
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Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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I have used 1F in the past, and the velocity, hence, recoil is less than 2F
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Mario User

Joined: 15 May 2007 Posts: 542 Location: Mohawk Valley, NY
Real Name: Mario Doreste
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Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:00 am Post subject: |
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| Wahkahchim wrote: | | Mario, I'm also wondering if I'm not bringing a 21st Century mind to a 18th century technology. Even if they had .77 bores, they issued .69 ball in paper cartridges because they were less interested in accuracy and more interested in volume and in reliability after multiple volleys had fouled the bore. Yet I'm interested in accuracy, so I tend to tinker with the variables a bit more than the original users. Is that a correct conclusion? If so I plan on going ahead and enjoying my tinkering but also realizing that it's not what a British line officer would do. Thoughts? |
| Fitzhugh Williams wrote: | | There is an account of Robert Rogers shooting at "marks" while deep in enemy territory (not the best place for practice), so apparently at least he was interested in accuracy. Exactly how he loaded for this exercise we will never know. |
There are several accounts of firing at marks by British soldiers. Recommendations to the Light Infantry to test their pieces and use a charge that works best for their piece.
The biggest difference, I think is in practical accuracy.
We want a 3" group at 100yds off a bench. They wanted to hit a standing man at 50yds offhand.
A much different standard.
Mario
_________________ http://frontierloyalist.blogspot.com/
http://bycanoeandsnowshoe.blogspot.com/
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Fitzhugh Williams User

Joined: 15 May 2007 Posts: 360 Location: Greenville, SC
Real Name: Fitzhugh Williams
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Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:08 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, but most shooting today is offhand, as opposed to the 18th century where a rest was common. Except for chunk gun shooting. We were talking about that yesterday. They shoot at the round end of a spent shotgun shell at 60 yds. They shoot prone off a rest. That's good any way you look at it! Today, a 3 inch group, offhand, with a smoothbore, will get you honorable mention at 25 yds, and put you in contention at 50.
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Joel/Calgary User
Joined: 04 Apr 2012 Posts: 1 Location: Calgary
Real Name: Joel Vecchione
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Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| Mario wrote: | | In a quick glance at LLP, SLP, commercial "Brown Bess" and Sea Service muskets from the 1730s to 1780s in a couple of books, the bore size runs from .750" to .800" with one at .700". |
It seems possible that that outlier at .700" could be one of the models in "carbine" bore of nominally .65".
I remain &c.,
Joel
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Pathfinder Ted User
Joined: 10 Dec 2007 Posts: 162 Location: Beautiful Tip of Michigans Thumb!
Real Name: Ted Jayson
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Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:51 am Post subject: |
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Wahkahchim,keep tinkering with a load that is going to give you the accuracy your looking for. I use my Bess to get meat,and I want the critter down,NOW. At 50yd's,offhand,I can hold a 3-4" group with a load that was played with A LOT in order to get what I concider acceptable accuracy.
I'm still working on the shot load,my being the WORST shotgunner in modern history doesn't help in working up a load,but it seem's that I'm missing a lot closer by stacking the shot colum. Seem's felt wad's give the best pattern,but I'm still tinkering.
_________________ If you don't like the way the founding fathers formed this country,Thank God they insured you have the right to leave, NOTHING NEEDS CHANGING!
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